using the world wide web to share news about my wonderful daughter, all the while brainstorming little acts of subversion

Thursday, September 18, 2008

In response:

There is so, so much other stuff I should be doing than fuming over Mr. Eric Dion Baker’s response. But you know what? I am so sick and tired of the Right’s strangle-hold on discourse in this country, their laughable belief that somehow their beliefs are under attack in the U.S. – yeah, as if Christianity could disappear from this country. As if. I am so sick of their appropriation of the values of democracy and their blindness to the GOP’s appropriation of Christianity for the GOP’s political gain- in short, I am so sick of the ignorance that comes with the GOP’s appropriation of so-called “compassionate conservatism” that gave us the last eight years of economic deterioration and introduced the beginnings of a totalitarian police state…I am so sick of people who would rather have someone who’s “human” (you know, because her 17 year-old daughter gets pregnant like so many other 17 year-olds, or because he can’t freakin’ pronounce “nuclear” -apparently like so many other West Texans) than someone who’s knowledgeable, intelligent, deliberate, and thoughtful be the leader of free world. Just because someone proclaims they read the Bible does not mean they do. And just because they proclaim they read your interpretation of the Bible, does not mean they are fit to lead the U.S. Get it?
But most importantly, I am so sick and tired of Right-wingers foreclosing conversation. I am so sick of the “my way or the highway” mentality that comes with the Right wing, although it is often couched in the form of “debate” or discussion. An example:

I think that since your side advocates the choice of abortion, and my side advocates the choice of life, perhaps we could both come together and advocate for the choice of abstinence. After all, which is safer, wear a bullet-proof vest or take the bullet out of the gun? Since you're pro-choice, maybe I should give you a third option of just getting shot and going to the hospital to have the bullet taken out.

Hahaha. Ha. How very McCain-“Bomb-bomb-bomb-Iran” of you, Mr. Baker. Let me make this clear: I understand that somewhere, somehow, some Christian way back when made it seem as if there was only one way and that way was the only right way…ever stop to think that that’s the same way other people think, you know, like those “Islamo-fascists” the Right’s hell-bent on eliminating?

But the fact is, there is not ONLY one way to think, to live, to interact, to love, to die in this world. Somewhere, way back when, that was what someone wanted you/us to believe. But you know what happens when a group of people think that there is only one way, and that way- their way- is the ONLY way of living, and that everyone should be constructed in their image? I’ll give you a few examples:

1. Because they were not white Europeans, Africans were exported from Africa and traded, bought and sold as property. They were not white males, and so they were property.

2. Because they were not white Europeans, the Native American population in this country has been systematically slaughtered and annihilated, even through the present.

3. Because they were not white European males, women were denied the right to vote and access to the public sphere. This made it okay to beat your wife, to throw her on the street, to deny her access to her children, to strip her of any property she may have inherited from her family, to deny her U.S. citizenship if she married a foreigner. It made it okay for a man to rape his wife, to have sex with her whenever, wherever, and to force numerous pregnancies on her until she died from them. It made it obscene to teach women how to prevent pregnancy, or even to know how she got pregnant. Get that? It was illegal. Even in the context of marriage, a woman could not say, “No.” Tell me how that’s okay? Better yet, tell me when the hell a man has EVER had that problem?

You know what else happens when you buy into the groupthink? You get blinded to when you’re getting taken for a ride, a la GOP-style. You close your eyes. You stop questioning. You elect a puppet douchebag like George W. Bush and vote for a political party that has never once done something that’s actually in your best interest. And you acquiesce to the atrocities of the last eight years.

But because I am a woman, however, I do NOT surrender my body to you or to anyone else. Case en pointe: we are treated as objects, as animals, which is what your post accomplishes in your rhetorical pairing of human pregnancy with animal gestation. I am not commensurate to an animal, as your analogy makes it seem. Does your wife know, Mr. Baker, that you consider her to be the same as a dog, cat, or other various livestock? And is that the thanks you give her for bearing your five children? Your rhetorical choice is compelling, though, because it is indicative of the culture in which we live: women’s labor is “owned” and not appreciated, it is discarded as simply “reproduction” and “just what women do.” Because, according to you, women, as a part of their "nature," “like being mothers” and they would rather “see their child’s first steps” than “hear about them.” And you know this, I suppose, because you’re a man, which I guess means you know better than a woman what a woman wants to do, or what is in her “nature” to be. You know what? You remember a woman named Andrea Yates? Her husband didn’t ask her what she wanted, ignored her Post-Partum Depression, and you remember what happened?

So, no, Mr. Baker, abortion is not about murder. It is about power, pure and simple. It is about asking- no, expecting, demanding- women to sacrifice their lives- their very selves- to abdicate any control over their selves and their very being- when reciprocity is never asked of men and there is simply no similar or analogous situation for men. Take your completely infuriating disregard for the violence of rape as one point on the spectrum of disregard and disrespect for women. Furthermore, your erroneous “pro-life” discourse is part and parcel of the totalizing discourse that enslaves Africans, that slaughters Native Americans, and that subjugates women. It all flows from the same logic and thinking, although you like to think it’s somehow contained within the pages of your seemingly timeless, ahistorical Bible. It’s not, and if it were, you can have it. I don't want to be part of a religion that subordinates anyone for any reason.

If we lived in a society that respected women as human beings, equal to men, we would not have the specter of abortion- women would be armed with the tools to prevent pregnancy, either by using birth control or not having sex, until they were ready.

So, please, Mr. Baker, stop speaking for me and stop speaking for what women are or want. At least give us that respect. That’s not to say that I won’t stop name-calling, because I truly think you drink the Kool-Aid. If the past eight years (maybe even the past 40) hadn’t been so freakin’ ridiculous with Rightwing nutcasery, I might have the patience to be polite. But I just don’t anymore. I’m not like some of my liberal counterparts- I’ll call it like I see it.

As for women, we know for ourselves. I mean, historically speaking, men like you have thought that we needed you to do just this, to tell us what we like to do, what makes us happy, but we don’t. Your wife takes care of five children- it seems that’s her “role” and nothing else to you- she can obviously handle herself. Let her speak for herself. More importantly, let me and other women speak for ourselves. We don’t need you or men like you. We never have.

5 comments:

Shaina said...

Wow, how typical. Some person craps all over something that you believe in, completely misinterpreting everything that feminism stands for, and then acts like your anger is a sign that he has "won." Obviously he's more concerned with ruffling your feathers than making his point, as his last comment demonstrates. Whenever I get comments of this type on my blog, it just reminds me of why the feminist movement is still so desperately needed in this country. Good job MaryAnn, and keep writing.

Eric Dion Baker said...

Hello Mary Anne - Allow me to reply.

First, what is at the root of all of your anger? I'm reading your post, which is very well written I must say, but you are obviously mad at someone about something, beyond the many social injustices you speak of in your writing.

Next - please be cautious as to how you address me. You don't know me, you don't know my wife. You have never seen me as husband or father, you have no idea how I treat my wife or children. You don't know the expectations I have of my wife or the role I expect her to play.

Based on your rantings, perhaps I am not the only groupthinker who drinks the Kool Aid and uses the talking points.

For the record Mrs. Martin (or did you keep your maiden name as not to be thought of as "property"?), I do not believe there is ONLY one way to think. I do believe there is a right and wrong, and only one way to Heaven. My beliefs are rooted in the scripture of the Holy Bible, it sounds like yours are not. That's fine, you are free to think and believe how you choose, as am I. It's a beauty of our country. The scripture frames my beliefs. It is why I advocate for life, and also why I am against gay marriage (I know we haven't gone there yet but I'm sure that's no surprise to you.)

It is why I am the head of my household. Does that mean to me that my wife can't make more than I? No, in fact, she probably could with great ease, but she chooses not to. She prefers, and chose in fact, to stay home with our children and give them the *best* possible care they could have. No one, myself included, is capable of taking better care of my own children than their mother. And I count it as a priveldge, blessing, and high honor that we with a little sacrifice, we are able to make that happen. I don't know if that's what you would ever choose for your family, but that's what we have chosen for ours, and we are very pleased with our decision.

Non-white European males have long gotten the shaft in our society, no one could deny that, and you and I have both been victims of that. Fortunately, many before fought hard and sacrificed more than we know so that that injustice can be repealed, and our nation not be healed, but rather finally come together.

I agree that the groupthink is bad. It is bad for what I stand for, and bad for what you stand for. I agree that our country needs help and direction, but do not cede that it is *all* the President's fault. The banking industry and corporate executives are largely to blame, but most overlook that fact. Most just take the easy route and say it's the President's fault. Wow, I never thought Bush was behind Enron and the real estate market crisis. I guess then I give hats off to Clinton for the dot com boom.

As for humans and animals, you sidestepped the issue. You attacked the example, not the point, and you know it. You didn't argue the point because you can't. As much as you want to believe, and no matter how mad you get or loud you scream, you cannot argue that pregnancy is the nurturing of *life*. I don't have to be a woman to know that. And perhaps on our next trip to Big D (which will likely be after you move there - hope that goes well btw) you will get to meet my wife and she can tell you for herself how I expressed my gratitude to her for bearing my five precious children.

I don't believe that *all* women want to be mothers. Not all women do, not all are maternal. However, I do believe that if more women felt they had the option to stay home and raise their children they would. I am not a woman, but I can tell you, as your husband Eric would likely agree, that if I could I would love to stay home and raise our children. I would love to develop that bond with them, and get to know their sweet little habits, and I would eat up (like a KFC Buffet) all those sweet little moments, and you know the ones I'm talking about! That is how *I* feel. I didn't carry the child, I didn't feel the kicks, I didn't feel the hiccups, I didn't deliver, nor did I get the first hold of *any* of my five babies. All said to say that I believe it reasonable that given all those precious little bonding moments, that *most* women would choose to be with their babies over being at work, most would choose to see the steps over hear about them. Yes, I do believe it is a part of a woman's nature, that it is how she was *created* and that yes, women do enjoy being mothers. Do I know from personal experience a woman's nature? No, but it is not my nature as a man. I do know how women were created, it is documented in the scriptures, and motherhood was a part of their purpose.

As for Andrea Yates, that is a very extreme example, surprised you went there, but maybe I shouldn't be. I think it safe to say that *most* women would seek and obtain proper help before drowning their children five in a row. That indicates a serious mental illness, perhaps we would both agree beyond post-partum depression?

You are incorrect in saying that to me, abortion is about murder. To me, abortion *is* murder, and is *about* the disregard of human life (at least in 93% of reported cases). I am not surprised that you say that abortion is about power. 93% (of reported cases) exercise that power to avoid inconvenience or to cover-up their mistake. You are correct again in saying that there is no choice for men. The woman gets the sole vote. The child does not get a vote, the father does not get a vote, nor do the thousands of families on waiting lists to adopt.

I do not disregard the violence of rape, and would say that we likely agree that it should be punished much more severly in our country than it is, even more so for cases involving children. I clearly stated that I am not denegrating the heinousness of rape. But again, you sidestepped the issue. What about the child? Does the child then not deserve life? Is it not possible that the child could be the precious gift that comes from such a horrific act? Again, I don't dispute the extent of suffering, but at what point does the anguish outweigh life itself?

As for the "totalizing discourse" - if it was this same thinking that enslaved the Africans, then it was that same thinking that freed them, that gave grace to the Native Americans (who could never be given enough reparations), and yes, even gave women the right to vote. It is the thinking that we were all created in God's image. Even though we may look different, we all bear his signature. We all have free will, and are allowed to think and choose how we please, it is how we were designed. Also, since you seem to have forgotten, it is also this line of thinking that formed the framework for this great nation, which does allow you the freedom to speak freely, be seen and heard, and be able to say, without fear of death, your opinion on that "seemingly timeless ahistorical Bible", the Bible which containes the principles this nation was founded upon.

Also, to clarify religious "subordination" - the Bible does say the woman is to submit herself to the man. That does not mean "Woman, you do what I say." nor does it mean the man makes more money than the woman, or any of those other things you might think. It references the structure of marriage that the man is the head of the household. He represents God to his household, and his household to God. He is the one accountable to God for the family. The example is in scripture (Genesis 3:8), right after the Eve eats the apple and then hands it to Adam to eat as well. God calls out "Adam, where are you?" God didn't ask for Eve, even though he knew that she was deceived and she took the bite. He wanted to speak with Adam, he was the accountable one. That is the appropriate application of that scripture.

Also, as stated yesterday, I do agree that more eductaion, and a heavy focus and insistence on abstinence is the right solution to the abortion issue.

I don't speak for you, nor do I speak for *all* women, but my wife affords me the grace to speak for her on occasion as we are one flesh. She can speak for herself, and believe me she does, and I don't feel the need to hold her back. As I stated earlier, you don't know me, much less me as husband or father, neither role I had modeled for me, and I think I'm pretty darn good at both, Larry can give you the real there. To say "it seems that’s her role and nothing else to you" is incredibly offensive and a testament to how much you don't know me. It's like me saying "your husband must be a real do-nothing buttwipe to let his wife talk to another man that way." Doesn't that just sound stupid? I of course think more highly of you and Eric than that, I don't speak to you as a wife and mom or Eric as a husband in that fashion, and I would ask, no expect, you to show the same respect to me.

Your new black oppressed kool-aid drinking conversation foreclosing enslaved friend,

eric

MaryAnn said...

Interesting, Eric, how painful and "offensive" it is for you when someone assumes and generalizes your experience and your lifestyle, and yet, this is exactly what nutjob evangelicals like you do all the fucking time...

And let me tell you what was the root of my anger: it was your presumptuousness to know the pain of a rape victim, and to still expect her to put that aside, despite the daily reminder of the violence done against her. THAT was when I got mad. Before that, I just thought you were ignorant. Then I realized what a patriarchal asshole you are, to assume that being pregnant somehow could erase the pain of rape and that a woman should be so easily able to forget her anguish, to put aside her self so completely. Again, when would a man have to actually do something similar, and he (you) would expect a woman to do it? Or, as my professor said today in response to you, spend a week in jail and see if you feel the same way about getting over rape afterwards.

And finally, learn how to spell my fucking name. Eric, and even Larry should be able to tell you how it pisses me off when people get it wrong.

Eric Dion Baker said...

Wow - I really did not think we were going this direction. I thought we were conversating and enjoying an exchanging of views, you explaining yours and me explaining mine. Your response really takes me aback, I wasn't expecting anything like that. I thought an obviously intelligent doctoral student would enjoy some discussion, I see we both don't get the other.

Also, to clarify, I never said or claimed "to know the pain of a rape victim", nor did I say or imply that "being pregnant somehow could erase the pain of rape and that a woman should be so easily able to forget her anguish". I did not say those things, nor anything resembling them, and you know it. As for your professor's comments, come on sis. Seriously. It's not even close to the same issue. Once again, another nice sidestep.

Okay, so back to middle. Tell me this: My value system and foundation for truth are the scriptures of the Holy Bible. What is your foundation of truth that you so passionately and strongly stand upon? We are clearly coming from two different places, and I would like to understand more about your perspective. What is it that I don't "get" that merited a response such as this? You consider me "ignorant" and "unread", funny you mention that. I've been getting the Levenger catalog for five years now and haven't been able to justify to Jen (my beautiful and amazing wife) a purchase yet. I am always into reading more and learning about what other people think and believe, so I would be delighted for a suggested reading list from you. :)

Also, I do apologize for the name, your actual name doesn't post like mine does. Larry never mentioned it, nor did Eric mention it to Larry when they talked about our conversation.

To close, I am not an asshole as you say. I don't believe my posts to portray me as such, I also don't think Larry or Eric would agree with that comment, either. My intent was not to piss you off, but to exchange views, learn more about a different perspective, and enjoy a conversation. I accomplished all of those things, despite being called a nutjob and asshole along the way.

I look forward to reading more of your blog, and hope your doctoral and your move go well.

Your ignorant nutjob evangelical patriarchal asshole name mis-spelling cellmate of Bubba and Skillet,

eric

Unknown said...

Mary Ann & Eric, I hope you both continue in this discussion. I am curious how you both would define “Pro-Life” and “Pro-Choice”. I would also be interested in which candidate you support for president, and why you believe this person would be the best person for the job.
As for me, I’ve always voted Republican but am really not thrilled with either candidate. I’m also not thrilled with what has happened over the past eight years. (both in the White House and in Congress) The person I wish were still in the race is Ron Paul, but he is not, so at this point in time I do not know which person I will cast my ballot for.